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454 w/ Dual TBI



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Old 09-10-2010, 10:00 AM   #1
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454 w/ Dual TBI

(I had this thread stashed in a secret hidey hole, and wanted to wait till the engine was up and running before I posted it to the public. I will try to get some videos of the cam break in and my runs at Top Truck posted up this evening.)

Some of my buddies in College Station have been working on swapping in the 454 into my rig. I was going to run a dual Impco 425's on it, but the guys talked me into going w/ a dual 350 TBI setup on it. Had one of them not been a TBI Guru, I probably would have stuck w/ the pane. They are still finishing it up as they are waiting on the headers to show up and sourcing waterpump, alternator and starter.

I started a parts list to keep track of everything that we bought for it. Most of the parts came from Summit, the one(s) from other vendors will be noted.

The top end is going to be pretty much brand new when this is done, so now I need to start researching what I will need to stroke it to 496.




Parts List: $4,433.20

HEADS $2181.84
Patriot Freedom Heads PAR-2211 x1 (set) $1,395.00
Intake pushrods - CCA-7934-1 (Comp Cams) x8 $79.04
Exhaust pushrods - CCA-7979-8 (Comp Cams) x1 $78.95
ARP Head Bolt Kit ARP-135-3603 $92.95
Comp Cams Roller Rockers CCA-1411-16 $145.95
Comp Cams CB 260AH-12 249-K11-302-4 $389.95


INTAKE $470.86
Edelbrock Squarebore/Squareport Intake EDL-7522 x1 $384.88
TBI Adapter Plate TRD-2210 x2 $85.98

CLUTCH $312.85
12" Centerforce 2 Disc CTF-384024 x1 $93.95
12" Centerforce 2 Pressure Plate CTF-CFT361909 $183.95
Throwout Bearing CTF-N1716 x1 $34.95

COMPUTER and ACCESSORIES $370.07
OBD1/USB Tuning Cable aldlobd1u x 1 $59.95
TBI Computer #16197427 (v6 or v8 does not matter) x 2 (one for trail spare) $69.99 (on ebay)
TBI V8 Computer Chip for #16197427 (must be v x 2 (one for trail spare) $29.99 (on ebay)
16/18 gauge Delphi female terminal #12146448 x 70 $13.30
20/22 gauge Delphi female terminal #12146447 x 70 $13.30
32 cavity Delphi ECM connector #12110207 x 1 $1.99
32 cavity Delphi Micro-pack 100 connector #12110113 x 1 $1.75
2 cavity pigtail connector #12052641-ASM x 1 $8.99
Delphi terminal removal tool #12031876 x 1 $17.99
Delphi Micro-pack 100 TPA lock #12045889 x 4 $1.96
G1 Memory adapter G1 x 1 $35.00
Replacement memory chip 27SF512 x 2 $10.00

FUEL DELIVERY $627.81
16gal fuel cell w/ foam 2160D x1 $155.99
#8AN Straight End SUM-220890B x4 $27.80
#8AN 45deg End SUM-220886B x4 $55.80
#8AN 90deg End SUM-220886B x3 $44.85
#8AN Hose pre-cut 25' length SUM-230820 x1 $84.95
#6AN Straight End SUM-220690B x1 $4.88
#6AN 45deg End SUM-220686B x3 $41.85
#6AN Hose pre-cut 10' length SUM-230610 x1 $39.95
-6 AN to 14mm x 1.5 O-Ring RUS-648070 x2 $23.90
-6 AN to 3/8 NPT SUM-220648B x2 $5.90
BYPASS REGULATOR AEI-13301 $125.95
BYPASS REGULATOR FITTING KIT 13301K1 $15.99 (Jegs)

EXHAUST $315.95
Headman Shorty Headers HED-68618 $315.95

MISC. $153.82
ENGINE BOLT KIT ARP-535-9701 $91.87
ENGINE GASKET SET FEL-KS2618 $61.95
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:01 AM   #2
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We are going to try a set of 305 injectors in it as it seems to still be running a touch rich right now. Hoping to have it purring by the Halloween run at Alto next month.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:02 AM   #3
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One more saved post for videos and pictures later.















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Last edited by dragoonranch; 09-12-2010 at 11:56 AM..
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:28 AM   #4
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How can you run 2 throttles on that? Need 2 computers?
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:47 AM   #5
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I thought about this setup many times on a tunnel ram small block in a S10 truck.
Did you piggy back the injectors and run one TPS ? that is what I was thinking of doing that and blocking off the regulator,air idle and removing the TPS from the front thorttle body. kinda work like the cross ram TBI set ups they used to put on the Vettes and Camaros back then.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:54 AM   #6
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How can you run 2 throttles on that? Need 2 computers?
I just looked at his parts list,looks like he is running 2 computers.
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:32 AM   #7
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Negative, single computer (just bought extras for spares). Using an external pressure regulator, only one TPS. There are some modifications that have to be made to the computer to 'fool it' into doing this correctly. It's not 100% yet, but hopefully with the new 305 injectors coming in this week they should be able to work out the last of the kinks. From what we can tell, this is the first big block done like this (and not controlled w/ an aftermarket computer or some such). There has been lots of talk about folks wanting to do it, but no one has accomplished it yet.
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:48 AM   #8
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Negative, single computer (just bought extras for spares). Using an external pressure regulator, only one TPS. There are some modifications that have to be made to the computer to 'fool it' into doing this correctly. It's not 100% yet, but hopefully with the new 305 injectors coming in this week they should be able to work out the last of the kinks. From what we can tell, this is the first big block done like this (and not controlled w/ an aftermarket computer or some such). There has been lots of talk about folks wanting to do it, but no one has accomplished it yet.
I read on one of the Chevy sites some time back, they were talking about installing bigger injectors.They were saying something about the Camaro(like a 87ish) can only go so big because the circuit that fires the injectors could only handle so much amps and it get hot and burn up,they were trying to install big block truck injectors in it. Is that part of what you are dealing with?
I was thinking a building a electronic relay board to activate the 2nd set of injectors to eliminate that problem,then run a wide band O2 sensor and remap the VE tables.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:02 PM   #9
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What we are running into right now is actually too much fuel. We have 350 injectors in it right now, and it seems to be on the rich side. I would have to get Flem to explain it any better, and he is apt to not want to discuss it till he gets it worked out. I have learned a ton while they were putting this all together for me in the spring and during the little time I got to run it at TTC, but seeing as I knew less than nothing about FI before I started I still pretty much don't know jack.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:11 PM   #10
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Cool, I'm interested on how it turns out so keep us informed.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:19 PM   #11
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Most definitely. I am sure he will do a writeup with tuning tables once he gets it wrapped up.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:27 PM   #12
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Why would you go to the trouble to do this? Just asking. Seems there would be easier ways of getting fuel injection.
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Old 09-10-2010, 01:34 PM   #13
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The main reason you ask??? I was 9000 miles away, I needed help swapping in the big block for TTC, and the dual propane mixer setup I was planning on using was even more voodoo to the guys that were going to help me than the EFI was to me.

That, and Flem had been wanting to try it for a long time and gave me a hellufa deal on the price for doing it (i.e. pretty much free ). If he can get the bugs worked out, this setup will be a relatively easy way (almost as easy as normal tbi is now) to get a very good and reliable form of fuel injection with most of the parts being able to be sourced from the JY.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:01 PM   #14
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How much of that $4330.20 is actually necessary just do a swap on an existing 454? Would you have to get the heads?
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:07 PM   #15
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Been doing some research for mine. So far I'm leaning towards this and this or this if I need more air/fuel than the stock injectors can handle.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:40 PM   #16
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sounds like a great build , i really like sound of this engine


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Old 09-11-2010, 04:13 AM   #17
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INTAKE $470.86
Edelbrock Squarebore/Squareport Intake EDL-7522 x1 $384.88
TBI Adapter Plate TRD-2210 x2 $85.98

COMPUTER and ACCESSORIES $99.98
TBI Computer #16197427 (v6 or v8 does not matter) $69.99 (on ebay)
TBI V8 Computer Chip for #16197427 (must be v $29.99 (on ebay)

FUEL DELIVERY $141.94

BYPASS REGULATOR AEI-13301 $125.95
BYPASS REGULATOR FITTING KIT 13301K1 $15.99 (Jegs)
This stuff is close to the 'necessities' of this project. Most of the computer stuff can be had at the JY, and the chips and such can be stashed in your toolkit/pocket for the most part. I sourced a lot of it on e-bay so they guys were able to work on the truck and not have to be spending so much time hunting parts.

I don't know if there is a cheaper alternative to the regulator, but it was a good one that was readily accessible.

We were going to go with a set of 781 cast heads, but were having a hard time finding a fresh set, or a set that needed a rebuild that wasn't way high. I wanted to keep the weight down on this fat pig too, so the aluminums were able to keep me real close to the weight of the 350 that we pulled out of it. If you go w/ the 781s, they are oval port and you just have to get the sister of that intake, part #EDL-7520 on Summit. They are the same price.

Most of the rest of it that I cleaned out was 'flashy' parts or to help clean up the wiring harness. Hopefully I will be able to get some dyno time on it once it's running right, and I believe we are going to do that down in San Antone at FuelInjectionSpecialties. May have to get a meet and greet together when we do, but it will likely be next spring or summer when it happens.
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:16 AM   #18
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We were unable to find a dual port intake for the tbi heads because they have the 'small oval' intake ports. That was the first reason we went w/ different heads.
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Old 09-11-2010, 10:00 AM   #19
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Hopefully one day I'll get to see this thing in action. Sounds bada$$ Ed.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:58 AM   #20
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Updated the 3rd post w/ some pictures.

Also pulled this off the truck's build thread. Gives a bit better description of what's going on.

Quote:
I've seen it done in pictures, but I don't know what computer was being used. The tbi computers that we all use for this stuff will not work in stock configuration. They are peak and hold injectors and the peak time is based on current which doubles with the additional injectors. its a lm1949 and there is a .1ohm resistor that controls the peak time, its value had to be cut in half to .05ohm (not something midstate or radio shack can get) so we cannibalized a junk camaro tbi computer for the resistors and soldered them on the board in parallel. Without modification the driver goes into hold mode before it hits the peak voltage and the injector either won't open or won't completely open.

If someone has an extra 1227747 ecm sitting around we could use it. I'm not certain on the longevity of this hack, there might be a reason I haven't seen anyone do this.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:50 PM   #21
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obijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud ofobijuan has much to be proud of
so do you have a kit yet? where do i send the check?
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Old 01-05-2011, 06:09 AM   #22
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****, I wish! If things go right I will be back statesides next month and might be able to start working on getting something together depending on how the rebuild goes this month. It is getting pulled from the truck right now so we can get it to Cook's in Bryan to be stroked/rebuilt.
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:16 AM   #23
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It finally got pulled and is at the shop ready to get rebuilt. I will try to get some pictures up as it goes along (one of my friends works at the shop ). I will know more about the parts list and such tomorrow hopefully. Now just have to figure out which roller cam to use.
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:10 PM   #24
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Wow, I really need to find some time to update this a bit.

She is back home and in the truck. Sounds MEAN!!! (will have to get some video once it's daylight again as my grandad will likely come down and shoot me if I crank it up while he is watching Law and Order again. )

I believe the intake will need to be pulled and resealed. When you crank it, it revs up to 3500-4000 rpm and stays steady there. Seems there is a little draft on the drivers side of the intake and that might not be the only culprit I believe.

It will stay running now though. The MAP sensor was plugged into a dead vacuum port I believe which was causing it to run up to the 3500 rpm like it is now, but would die off after about 30 seconds of running. Once I switched it, it purrs like a kitten (ok, really it purrs like a pisssed off Mufasa in heat! )
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:17 PM   #25
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Wow sound like a beast dont see why it wouldn't work just gotta try and tune the air fuel ratio as much *** possible. Should work find tho im thinking with the 35 injectors and the big block since i have seen people run them on stock 454. Wow can't wait to see it in action see how she does. So pretty much you split the wires and ran them together to fire at the same fire order of eachother pretty Awesomeeeee...
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