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Old 11-24-2013, 08:43 PM   #1
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Link length

Just trying to get some info on a ideal link length for the Che-rocky.
I could really use some feed back guys anything helps.
Belly clearance: 25"
Wheelbase: 125-130"
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Old 11-24-2013, 08:48 PM   #2
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uppers should be ~75% the length of the lowers. Gen rule of thumb
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Old 11-24-2013, 08:54 PM   #3
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My uppers were longer than my lowers by about 1/2", about 44" long roughly. I have a screenshot of the calculator specs on mine, I had 83% AS, and -1* roll axis (slight understeer)
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Old 11-24-2013, 08:56 PM   #4
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That answer isn't really that easy to give. What's the vehicle? Are you setting it up from scratch or are you modding an existing setup?

For a more common wheelbase, (95-112ish) 42" is a common target. But so many other thing come into play.
Length of subframe
Degree of Triangulation
Roll axis
Etc. then once you've got worked out, you got to see what works for you specific vehicle.
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Old 11-24-2013, 08:56 PM   #5
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My uppers were longer than my lowers by about 1/2", about 44" long roughly. I have a screenshot of the calculator specs on mine, I had 83% AS, and -1* roll axis (slight understeer)
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:00 PM   #6
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I had planned on 48'' on my lowers but they just seemed a little long.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:00 PM   #7
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As discarded said, its a difficult question to answer, and to be 100% honest there is no right or wrong answer. A lot depends on what feel you want, Anti squat, Anti dive, neutral, some people like lots of antisquat some dont.. See what fits your application, plug the numbers in a calculator and see what it looks like. The biggest thing is trying to keep the roll axis as close to 0 as possible IMO.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:06 PM   #8
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That answer isn't really that easy to give. What's the vehicle? Are you setting it up from scratch or are you modding an existing setup?

For a more common wheelbase, (95-112ish) 42" is a common target. But so many other thing come into play.
Length of subframe
Degree of Triangulation
Roll axis
Etc. then once you've got worked out, you got to see what works for you specific vehicle.
It's a ZJ with a tube chassis that I've built from scratch. I guess what I'm really trying to do is get a length that is about average and try that and see how that works for me.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:22 PM   #9
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My lowers are around 42ish.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:26 PM   #10
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Anything under the 75% as mentioned will give you hell with your pinion angles. 75% to 100% is the typical acceptable range.
With 4links, any thing you change affects EVERYTHING else. If you are uncertain, build link mounts with adjustability. (Good to do anyways)
Not to divert you from this site but If you're going down this route, you need to read everything you can find. Pirate has some great tech once you sort through all of the dick measuring. There's one thread "god of suspension" or something like that and a couple others that are as good as any text book out there (just got to wade through the bs)
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:37 PM   #11
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Not trying to avoid answering you but without all the details, just throwing a number out there is kinda pointless. Changing the links by a few inches. Can change the convergent points and instant centers which affects the roll axis and anti squat.
If you have a steep roll axis, then a longer link will help minimize rear steer. Too much length up front can get major deflection on ledges, etc.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:49 PM   #12
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Thanks guys!!!
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Big4x4ride View Post
As discarded said, its a difficult question to answer, and to be 100% honest there is no right or wrong answer. A lot depends on what feel you want, Anti squat, Anti dive, neutral, some people like lots of antisquat some dont.. See what fits your application, plug the numbers in a calculator and see what it looks like. The biggest thing is trying to keep the roll axis as close to 0 as possible IMO.
Something to keep in mind with regards to squat/anti-squat, the science behind this logic is based on flat land drag racing (typically). So once you are at an incline it all changes. Most will say that about 80% anti squat is ideal since "it puts you at 100% anti-squat or neutral on an "typical" incline". Too much anti squat and you'll get bouncy too little and you'll be stable as hell but won't climb as well.
Of course this is has more to do with you link mount locations than the lengths.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:11 PM   #14
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How is anti squat controlled by the placement and triangulation of the upper link mounts or both upper and lower link mounts?
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:37 AM   #15
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First off, I don't want this to come off as preachy so if I'm wrong on any of this, someone correct me. This is just the logic as I understand it..



When viewed from the side, if you were to draw an imaginary line through the center of the upper link (longways) and continue that line for a few feet then do the same for the lower link, the imaginary forward intersection of those two lines would be your instant center or IC. (This is assuming that the frame side link mount's vertical separation is less than the axle's verticals seperation (min of 8" suggested). (If the uppers and lowers are perfectly parallel, these line would never cross)

Still looking at the rig from the side:
imagine a vertical line through the front and rear axle shafts (to represent the wheel base)
Imagine a horizontal line parallel to ground at the center of gravity or COG (generically guesstimated as the top bolt of your trans bell housing).

Ok, now one more line. Point A is at the intersection of the front wheelbase line the COG line. Point B is where the rear wheelbase line meets the ground. This line is your anti squat line. Below the line you have less than 100% AS or squat. Over this line an you have over 100% AS.

So now to answer your question.
Your lower links are somewhat limited in their placement. The axle side is basically at half your tire height. And your frame side is kinda dictated by your belly height.

So really it's the uppers which are more consequential in their placement.

Imagine the three lines (upper link line, lower link line, and antisquat line) as three laser pointers. As long as you're not moving your engine up or down, the antisquat line is fused in space.

As mentioned above,the lower link line is pretty much locked in as well. So we have two static lines but the third is not static at all and is the difference between your rig spinning the tires, hopping or crawling.

So back to the lasers, if we were trying to get 100% AS, we'd want the lower link laser and the upper link laser to cross beams (IC) exactly on the the antisquat line.
If we wanted 80% AS or squat, we'd have them cross at 80% of the distance from the ground to the AS line.

So naturally whatever angle you are happy with your upper link laser, you'd build your upper link on that same plane.

So, Assuming all of this was previously determined, and the original question was asked regarding solely the length of the links, and none of the gibberish I just spouted, then the concern would be that longer you make the length from what was originally anticipated, the flatter you make the angles of the lasers and the further you IC moves away from the AS line.

The angle of the triangulation does not affect the the antisquat numbers since Anti-Squat only takes into consideration 2 dimensions (and the triangulation is on the 3rd dimension). But does determine the length of the links as well as the roll axis and or roll center. (Whole other topic)

It's late and I'm using an iPad so if something is all screwed up, I'll fix it tomorrow. This stuff is confusing and I hope I didn't just completely mess you up with this post. If you have any questions about any of this ask. And like said in the beginning. If I'm wrong please correct it.
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Last edited by discarded; 11-26-2013 at 09:29 AM..
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Old 11-25-2013, 02:33 AM   #16
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This is some awesome information man! It all makes sense to me now that I've seen the illustration; that will help me determine the link length and placement of the link mounts. Thanks for sharing I'll return feedback as soon as I get the first shake down run done.
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:20 AM   #17
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I'd suggest a **** ton of reading and playing on the 4 link calculator. The ideal set-up is personal preference. Enter some numbers in the calculator, then run it through a full suspension cycle, it will help you understand how upper/lower link length affect one another.

A good place to start. This is just one of many long threads on pbb. Good info once you weed through the bullshit.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:41 AM   #18
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Not to take away from all these good answers. My lowers are 34" or so and my uppers are 40" or so. My front and rear links are pretty dang close to the same length. Didnt put anything in a calculater. Basically just built it, flexed every corner and was happy with it.

I basically did the same thing on the ftoy front and rear and it worked pretty good. Just needed better tires on it.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:50 AM   #19
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This is the other thread I couldn't remember. As you get through it, you'll start to to realize who knows what they're saying and who is just there to boost their post counter.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:02 AM   #20
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Very helpful information from discarded. It can all get very confusing very quickly trying calculate all of those numbers especially on a cherokee. My first build was yours exactly. When I tried to get numbers like everyone on pirate says is perfect, not a damn thing would fit under the jeep. Before I knew it I had more than 10hrs and an entire weekend of laying under my jeep with a tape measure on jack stands sayin "fock" this rigs never gonna be on the trail.

I learned real quick that a full body rig dictates how youre gonna setup your suspension geometry and that all those perfect numbers you can't seem to achieve under your rig can be frustrating. I also have learned that when you see an $85k rig at camp and it's numbers and link placement are perfect on paper, without stickies it wheels like anus on the trail but could blast a set of sand whoops at 90.

Basically, that perfect setup is relative to what you want. If you see my rig, my link setup, placement, length LOOKS funny and is all wrong on a calculator but it worked damn well on my ZJ so I built it identical on my tube rig.

In the end, if you are working with a set platform already, sometimes you just gotta start building and make changes as you go. Discarded gave some really good info. Wish I had it on my first build. Good luck man. Can't wait to see what you end up with.


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Old 11-26-2013, 09:35 AM   #21
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Very helpful information from discarded. It can all get very confusing very quickly trying calculate all of those numbers especially on a cherokee. My first build was yours exactly. When I tried to get numbers like everyone on pirate says is perfect, not a damn thing would fit under the jeep. Before I knew it I had more than 10hrs and an entire weekend of laying under my jeep with a tape measure on jack stands sayin "fock" this rigs never gonna be on the trail.

I learned real quick that a full body rig dictates how youre gonna setup your suspension geometry and that all those perfect numbers you can't seem to achieve under your rig can be frustrating. I also have learned that when you see an $85k rig at camp and it's numbers and link placement are perfect on paper, without stickies it wheels like anus on the trail but could blast a set of sand whoops at 90.

Basically, that perfect setup is relative to what you want. If you see my rig, my link setup, placement, length LOOKS funny and is all wrong on a calculator but it worked damn well on my ZJ so I built it identical on my tube rig.

In the end, if you are working with a set platform already, sometimes you just gotta start building and make changes as you go. Discarded gave some really good info. Wish I had it on my first build. Good luck man. Can't wait to see what you end up with.


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Old 11-28-2013, 08:38 AM   #22
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How about some pic of your rig.

Like a side view. At ride height or fully compressed.

Do the 75% length and sepration height at the axle.

For trail rigs, keep the 75% rules in mind, and just mount the links were they well fit.

There no average length on link. All are made to fit.
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Old 11-28-2013, 08:55 AM   #23
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Is it best to configure my dual triangular links at ride height or compressed?
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Old 11-28-2013, 08:59 AM   #24
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Ride height, and then cycle the suspension through its movements to make sure no interference is present. Also make sure pinion angle look good through movement, which in all honesty won't move near as much as you think it will on the trail as the suspension will never fully unload unless you are jumping it.The pinion actually does a pretty good job at saying in the same area on the rear, now the front is a whole different animal.


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Old 11-28-2013, 11:32 AM   #25
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^This. Also before you finish weld your mounts, make sure your front driveshaft clears your links. I know this sounds obvious but it can be easily overlooked till it's to late
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