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Poll & Questions for new Houston Off Road Park.



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Old 02-04-2005, 09:38 PM   #1
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Poll & Questions for new Houston Off Road Park.

I was wondering what you guys down here would want in a park in the Houston area? Remember it is flat, but terrain can be added with the proper equipment.

I was thinking in the neighborhood of like the 4Wheel & Offroad Ultimate Truck Challenge course.

I need your ideas!!! I know what I want, but what I want and what makes money is usually two different things.
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Old 02-05-2005, 06:35 PM   #2
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hmmm lotsa rock gardens! a mud pit and a bunch of trails
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Old 02-05-2005, 07:25 PM   #3
 
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Yeah skinny trails!!!! ( so Trey won't scare all the trees away) and a couple levels of climbs. from training to Damn did you see what I did????
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Old 02-05-2005, 07:48 PM   #4
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Something with a variety, so people with rigs of all build levels can come out
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Old 02-05-2005, 09:51 PM   #5
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Great input so far! Thanks. I have been talking with a rep from TMTC and it looks like I will need approximately 1000+ acres to make this deal feasible and a come back attraction. I am either going to have to get grants or something I do not know yet. I do not have $100,000 just sitting around.(That would be my part if I was to purchase land and get a loan, ie SBA of some kind. They like at least 10% equity invested.)

I have access to some heavy earth moving equipment, but would need to find some rocks, and of course a good chunk of land that could be worked with. Simulated trails is going to be difficult, unless they are already built in to the scape.

If anybody has any specific ideas, or features of other parks that you like or dislike, PLEASE let me know.

Also what would you be willing to pay to get in and on what basis...per person, per driver, per rig, per membership, a combo of the above......

Again I have answers to these questions, but I would rather build a park for what others want, and not what I want. It makes success that much easier......
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Old 02-05-2005, 09:54 PM   #6
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Let me qualify some of what I just said.....

In my book hard/difficult do not mean impossible.....

Simulated trails are doable, with time of course......
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Old 02-06-2005, 07:18 AM   #7
 
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I think that the state has funds set aside as part of SB155, but I'm not sure how to go about getting at them. I've suggested to a friend who operates several sand and clay pits about developing those for off-road use. I think those areas could be had pretty cheap and would offer some of the elevation changes for hill climbing. Just something to think about.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:09 PM   #8
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Smile

Thanks Trey I will ask TMTC about that!



I think I am going to change my screenname to Super Burban
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Old 02-08-2005, 10:22 AM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by trey aka superbronco
I think that the state has funds set aside as part of SB155, but I'm not sure how to go about getting at them. I've suggested to a friend who operates several sand and clay pits about developing those for off-road use. I think those areas could be had pretty cheap and would offer some of the elevation changes for hill climbing. Just something to think about.
SB155 does NOT provide any funding. It only says that the state will work to provide alternative riding areas to the banned river access areas. So far, they haven't really done much other than ask TMTC to do something. (Really convenient considering that TMTC has been in a bind trying to find property that A) fits riding requirements on land that is affordable and B) fits state requirements for funding reimbursment.) This year is the last year that TMTC has land acquisition grant money still available before the grant has to be reapplied. Also, the state has been feeling some major pressure to fulfill its SB155 promise. TMTC is moving forward on a land purchase goal in the hopes that the state will relent to the pressure and release its funding on an otherwise unobtainable land purchase.

TMTC receives much of its funding through reimbursment by way of the federal RTF program. However, the federal funds are provided to the states and each state is required to provide an admin to oversee the funding of projects. In Texas, the funding is administered by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept.

Only recently, has TP&W agreed to allow reimbursement to private parks for projects. Up until now, it had only been allowing funding to government projects and non-profit organizations like TMTC. With that being said, they are still being very picky about which private organizations receive reimbursement.

Also, have you noticed the key word "reimbursement" everywhere in my post? You have to be careful in what you do business-wise because the state operates in a REIMBURSEMENT mode. You have to find and provide 100% of the money FIRST before the state considers to give some back (max reimbursement is 80% by the way). (This has been a very big hinderance for TMTC to purchase new property. We're banking on the pressure to the state provided by their own SB155 right now.)

I will let you know that there has been some legislation come up recently that may put a lot of money in the bank for us offroaders. There is talk of a permit program, where if you want to ride offroad then you buy an annual permit. New ATV and dirt bike sales would have this permit price built into it just like tags and registartion now. These funds go into an account strickly for offroading parks and projects. It would be similar to California's permit program.

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Old 02-08-2005, 04:46 PM   #10
 
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Thanks for the clarification Stacy, I knew the state had some provisions, but wasn't sure how it was set up. Thanks
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Old 02-10-2005, 01:48 PM   #11
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Smile

Well I just need to find an investment banker that would like to invest in my proposal in return for some equity in the business. Then I can go and get a small business loan after proving that I do have a business that equity invested.

Or eveyone I know could pitch in 10,000 and we would almost be there.....
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Old 02-10-2005, 02:30 PM   #12
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I would gladly volunteer to help with legwork on a project like this.

On the subject of money, don't overlook corporate sponsorships. Seems like Superlift sponsored an off-road park in Arkansas. Among those sponsors, consider also sponsors beyond strictly off-road aftermarket people. Many dealers, like Jeep and GMC (Hummer), it seems would or should be willing to have some level of sponsorship to enhance their off-road marketing and have a local 'proving-ground'.

Also, consider speaking with some of the competition groups (UROC, Calrocs, whatever) about design input and agreements about hosting something.
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Old 02-10-2005, 06:31 PM   #13
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Those are some great ideas X! Thanks.
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:08 PM   #14
 
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I would gladly volunteer to help with legwork on a project like this.

On the subject of money, don't overlook corporate sponsorships. Seems like Superlift sponsored an off-road park in Arkansas. Among those sponsors, consider also sponsors beyond strictly off-road aftermarket people. Many dealers, like Jeep and GMC (Hummer), it seems would or should be willing to have some level of sponsorship to enhance their off-road marketing and have a local 'proving-ground'.

Also, consider speaking with some of the competition groups (UROC, Calrocs, whatever) about design input and agreements about hosting something.
Keep in mind when looking for corporate sponsors that most will not be interested in sponsoring a "for-profit" company. Most of these companies woudl however throw plenty of money into a 501c(3) non-profit corporation.

In the case of Superlift, Superlift does NOT sponsor an offroad park in Arkansas. Superlift OWNS an offroad park in Arkansas. They actually bought it secondarily, though. The area that the park resides on was one in which many people had been using for many years as an OHV area. When the locals were notified that the area was to be closed off limits (I believe for fear of liability lawsuits, but not 100% sure), then there were a group of 12 individuals that pooled their money and resources in order to buy the land and keep it open.

I believe that after purchasing it, they quickly realized that they weren't sure how to proceed to run it as a park. They approached a lot of people for help until Superlift finally saw the potential and started buying each of the owners out to turn it into a park. I believe that Superlift owns the entire park now, but there may still be a couple of holdouts from those original 12 buyers.

TMTC and their park, BMRA in Gilmer, TX, was used as the model to build a very nice park in Hot Springs.

Stacy
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:46 AM   #15
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So I should form a not for profit to get money....how expensive is that?
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Old 02-24-2005, 12:57 PM   #16
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Check out General Sam's 4x4 park. It is in Huntsville. You can see a map and some pics online at www.generalsams.com

It is a 4x4 park that is still in it's infancy. It has a lot of great land and more trails being developed every day. The owner is dozing new trails and ATVs/4x4 trucks are helping make the rest.

Some of the things you need to keep in mind IMO are the "extras". Land and trails are awesome...but to become a premier off-road park you'll want:
1. RV hook-ups
2. running water
3. bathroom facililities (maybe even shower facilities)
4. tent camping section

These are the basic amenities that help put a 4x4 park one step above the next place. General Sam's is in the process of installing all this stuff and you can expect it to be a premier 4x4 park in a few years as it groes in popularity.

I think there is also some GREAT land on Green's Bayou with awesome elevation changes, vally's, mud, trails, etc... I don't know what (if any) of it is for sale, but there are THOUSANDS of acres of land there. We ride 4x4 ATVs on a 3500 acre plot out at Tidwell right on Green's Bayou...it's awesome. If someone developed some trails for 4x4 trucks out there...it would be the best place in Houston!!
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Old 02-24-2005, 02:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
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So I should form a not for profit to get money....how expensive is that?
Ok, keep in mind that just because it's on the Internet doesn't make it gospel, but here is some info to get you pointed in the right direction:

How to incorporate a non-profit in Texas:
http://www.incparadise.com/incorpora...rporations.htm

Incorporating in Texas generally:
http://www.incparadise.com/incorporation/texas.htm

Texas Secretary of State's Office Corporations Section:
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/index.shtml

Texas non-profit corporation act:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statu....000009.00.htm

Forms and Summaries needed to do a non-profit:
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/nonprofit.shtml

TX Secretary of State's FAQ on forming a Non-profit
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/nonprofitfaqs.shtml

IRS Tax Information for Non-profits:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/index.html

I would also suggest you try to interface with the folks at the Texas Motorized Trails Coalition. I'm sure they could be a big help and, who knows, a little cooperation might go a long way because those guys have definitely run the traps on getting grants and other government funding through the State
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Old 02-25-2005, 09:11 AM   #18
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Also, more thoughts:

Houston is crying out for more club activity...I think Southern High Rollers is out of Houston and several of us here on the board loosely want to start getting together regularly. These folks can provide a lot a labor and design input for you once you acquire property. I think club participation is crucial to long-term commercial success, as well, since they will draw people to your venue through word of mouth if it is a good property and it is well-run.

Don't forget to reach out to the more casual 4x4 crowd, as well. One example of some very fine folks in Houston that fits that description is Houston Area Powerstrokes. Many are like me, and polish on their superduties way too much to tear them up, but there are some wild-eyed types like MudGod too!! HAPS is a well-populated and organized outfit...
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Old 02-25-2005, 09:13 AM   #19
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There are some local performance and 4x4 outfits, as well. We all know about 4WP, but in addition to them, there is B&C Off Road and Woodlands Performance Suspension. Diesel Innovations crosses over, they are a performance diesel shop that does both 4x4 and street rig mods. Seems like there is another 4x4 outfit down in Pasadena I'm forgetting.
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:17 AM   #20
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The Shop Offroad in League City sponsors the Rough Canyon event every year.

http://www.offroadshop.com/
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Old 02-25-2005, 02:16 PM   #21
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well a couple of things that i havent seen here yet are rate of return. IF you can get the funding to 1 buy the land, 2 buy/rent the equipment and build the place to be user friendly(easy enough) how long would it take before you can get your money back not including maintanence salaries upkeep?? how many people from hou would actually use it after a year or two. how much wil it cost for use....not trying to rain on your parade but theres alot of things you need to get some stats on first. you need to start by writing a business plan and demonstrate how and where the monies will be used and estimates on just about everything you can think of then more. after you compile tons of info check to see if its still feasible, if so take it to a bank. moneys cheap right now(thanks W) i went through it with one of my business loans a couple of years ago. banks like lots of stats, numbers and papers substantiating everything! my loan was bought at the first bank i showed my plan to in about 15 miutes, and funded in under 2 weeks. so it is possible, check with the local SBA office(small business administration) they are tons of help if you find the right people.

i'd love to see something like this and have thought about it myself, but i cant see a good enough return, and everthing here is FLAT it would cost several million bucks to build something like that(at least to what i think it should be) miles and miles of rocks and mud trails, maintenance of the same. i believe it would cost way to much just to maintain, let alone turn a profit. non profits still need to make money for capitol growth.

plus you still need 15 to 25% of your OWN money as a down payment. investers are there but you still need to show them how they can make there money back with a profit.

15 bucks per vehicle and 5 per head
weekday - number of people per day...at most av during the yr - 15 per wkday -300 wk (not enough for a salary)
weekends - same as above...say 30 per day so 60 - 1200wkend (not bad)but you still have mortgage and utilities
camping rentals...dunno

month - roughly 6k per month thats estimated per yr. better weather month will be higher buy christmas season will be less, to much rain will be less...

6k per month is not enough to repay a 2mill load and pay a salary, utilities, and upkeep.

somebody please prove me WRONG, cause i'd love to see it arouynd here. hell prove it to me well enough and i might invest.(a little, cause im poor)
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Old 02-25-2005, 04:12 PM   #22
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Thanks for all of the input. I have REALLY thought about the financial part and I am currently in a Finance class that is taught by an executive of Payne Webber and Ernst & Young and it is taught on the level for young entrepeneurs.

As far as the facilities I definitely agree with the ideas given so far, but seeing that I am a Hotel Management major, I have even thought about taking it a step further. I do want to build an area for "hose downs", kind of like the big rig washing stations at truck stops....


Believe me, I have thought about all of the possibilities, but still want YOUR input.

I believe it is not what I want, but what ya'll want. This will make it a success. Well that and someone with a few million to trust me with!

Again thank ya'll for all of the input, links, suggestions, and considerations. If I had the capital right now it would be built this year, but in time.

THANKS!
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