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Old 09-18-2009, 09:58 AM   #1
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4 link material ????

What are you guys running for link material on your link suspensions? Vehicle will be an all tube buggy with an ls1, doubler, rockwells, and H1's with 47 LTB's. I want something that will be strong enough to survive. I looked into 7075 aluminum in the 2 and 2.5 size but that stuff is big $$$$. I am considering using square for the links. Its cheap and easy to find. What size square would i need to get to make it survive? Would 2" x .25 square be enough, or would i need to jump up to 2.5" x .25 square? I know the square is heavier than the round in the same general size but the square is considerably cheaper. What would be some options size wise?
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Old 09-18-2009, 11:53 AM   #2
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Go with the alum links. Call Castle Metals in Dallas or Houston(maybe in San Antonio) they are WAY cheaper than what Branik or the like does. I can get enough 2.5" 7075 t651 for around $700 bucks then have it machined at the local machine shop for around $3-400. Plus with alum links you dont have to buy tube inserts.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:01 PM   #3
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Agreed, if you can afford it go aluminum, otherwise I'd be gettin some 2 1/4" 3/8" wall tube and using 1 1/4" heims for sure.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:06 PM   #4
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Any type of real link materal well cost $$$$$$ from 7075 alum to dom and cromo tubing.
Most links are $60 to $200 a link. Plus joint of your choose. Most spend $800 to $1400 for a link setup.

Your 2x2.25 wall sq mite work but want hold up very long. That why most big rig's go with .375 or .500 wall dom for links or the new crave is 7075 alum.

Have you even looked into link ends yet there even higher. If your going to play hard. Your going to have to pay big for parts that well hold up.
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Old 09-18-2009, 06:09 PM   #5
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I used 2x2x.375 and .25 on shorter links.welded some solid sq.stock in the ends for heims,also welded some super joints on too. used this on 3 different buggys I built and the have held up pretty darn good so far...last buggy was built 3 years ago so they do have some time on them... I know that round tubing or pipe in that would not of held up in mild steel.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:37 AM   #6
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x2 the 2.25"x.375 wall and 1 1/4" heims are nearly indestructable
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:52 PM   #7
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I built my 4 link out or 2"x2" .250 wall with polyperformance johnny joints. Man I gave those arms hell!! They never failed me and I will go back with them again on my new rig. Square tubing is a lot stronger than d.o.m. tubing. AND IT'S CHEAP!! If you bend one then you still have material left from the 20ft stick you bought just build another. The chromo and alum looks great but I can't afford it.
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Old 12-02-2009, 02:09 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by tclowrance View Post
Square tubing is a lot stronger than d.o.m. tubing.



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Old 12-02-2009, 02:48 PM   #9
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The way I look at it. If he's got the money to buy a LS1, double set up, and 47 LTBs why skimp out on the links. I've bent my .500 wall DOM lower links on the PIG but I drive a lot harder than most. If I ever do build another rockwelled buggy it will have 2 1/2 lowers and 1 3/4 uppers made out of 7075.

Just my .02

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Old 12-03-2009, 09:05 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monstercrawler View Post
If he's got the money to buy a LS1, double set up, and 47 LTBs why skimp out on the links. .
X2 on that, theres no sense in going cheap now.




Either Cody or Tclowrance, please explain your reasoning, but please try and make it from a scientific stand point.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:06 AM   #11
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Pound for pound, round is better for torsional loads. That's why manufacturers use round drive shafts not square. If weight is not a factor and bending is, i would use square. The arms of the links are not weight baring. The springs take all the weight. The force put on a suspension arm is a push-pull affect.

If you do the math the square has more surface area and you can buy a thicker wall square tubing for much cheaper, making it stronger for links. If a link is dented, Round tubing is stronger because the tension is spread out through the whole tube unlike square where is it just on the one flat side that will can and will fail. The advantage to square is that in a 2x2 .25 wall it is really hard to dent and cheap! Do a hammer test on the two in the same wall thickness. That is why the wall thickness must be thick enough to resist local dimpling. The square is harder to deform than the round.

I guess I should of explained before I just went off and said square is stronger than DOM. I'm not saying round is weaker and not worth a crap, just saying the square is cheaper and you can get a much thicker and stronger product for less money.

I do agree that is you have spent lots of cash on other good parts than buy the good stuff for you links. If you are a broke B&%@H like me, then use square. I put square on it's edge making it look like a diamond so it doesn't look like crap. I do like the look of round way better than square.


Chrome-Moly Tensile Strength = 90,000 psi
DOM Tensile Strength = 70,000 psi
HREW Tensile Strength = 40,000 psi
Square tubing Tensile Strength = 72,000 psi

This chart is hard to read but I tried...Sorry guys
As you can see square and round are really close to the same.

CHART B — Comparison of Typical Mechanical Properties
ROUND STRUCTURAL TUBING
ASTM A500 ASTM A500 ASTM A500 High-Strength, Low-Alloy
Grade A Grade B Grade C HSLA (Typical Properties)
Tensile Stength Min. psi. 45,000 58,000 62,000 70-80,000
Yield Strength Min. psi. 33,000 42,000 46,000 60-70,000

SQUARE AND RECTANGULAR STRUCTURAL TUBING
ASTM A500 ASTM A500 ASTM A500 High-Strength, Low-Alloy
Grade A Grade B Grade C HSLA (Typical Properties)
Tensile Strength Min. psi. 45,000 58,000 62,000 70-80,000
Yield Strength Min. psi. 39,000 46,000 50,000 60-70,000



I'm not trying to be a butt and I really don't like agruing. I do like discussing and I'm always up for a learning experience!! I want to hear everyone else's scientific opinion.
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Old 12-03-2009, 05:44 PM   #12
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:20 PM   #13
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all depends on the size of the dom vs the 2x2 .250 wall square tubing. what are you comparing? 2" .250 wall DOM or poop pipe mild steel? Jimmys buggy has the square and I agree they hold up far past what I ever would have imagened but they are bent already and actually bent up high where nothing can even touch them. just under load is what caused it to bend. im not scared to run em but i know how i drive and afraid if i landed hard on one like i have dom it would bend no doubt. I always understand moneys a factor and this was just one way i didnt wanna cut it with rocks and a big block. Mostly wanted it to be skinny-pedal-proof anways. atleast from a braket link standpoint. driveshafts tcase not sure yet on.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:25 PM   #14
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I agree completely Tclowrance(and very nice post), I did the math last night and I arrived at the same conclusion.

Here is some more information on Bending.
The max stress in a beam with a moment(bending force) applied is as follows

max stress=(M*c)/I
M=the moment
c=distance from centerline to outeredge
I=moment of inertia

if we call I/c the section modulus "S"
then stress=M/S

This means the smaller the S the higher the stress and the more susceptible to failure a beam is.(given the same material properties, which Tclowrance stated is true from earlier)

The Section Modulus for tubes is as follows
Square Tube:
S=((A^4)-(Ai^4))/(6*A)
A= width of and outer side
Ai= width of and Inner side

Round Tube
S=(pi)*((do^4)-(di^4))/(32*do)
Do= Outer Diameter
Di= Inner Diameter

So for 2" x 2" - .25"wall square
S=.9115
and for 2" - .25"wall Dom
S=.5369

Thus since the DOM has a smaller section modulus then the stress would be greater than that of the square tubing and therfore it is more likely to bend than the square.(given the same material properties)

This information came from the book "Mechanics of Materials" by R.C. Hibbler
So this is not my opinion. If you find something wrong I will gladly correct it.

Given the same outer dimensions then square tube will be generally more resilient to bending than DOM but obviously when comparing a large piece of DOM to a smaller square tube there is point at which DOM is definitely stronger.
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Old 12-03-2009, 11:28 PM   #15
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Yes I agree both very nice post and homework. So out of curiosity what would be the size of DOM that would be closest to the strength of 2x2? And furthermore what would be a comperable piece of square stock that would equal in strength to what i'm going to run 2.25"x .375wall (1.5"id)? Im pretty interested in diffrent strengths of link materials. All I ever heard was yea poop pipes the best for link material. which everyone knows it bull. the guy running it had strait links less than 30" long rod end to rod end. Super short.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwellyj View Post
And furthermore what would be a comparable piece of square stock that would equal in strength to what I'm going to run 2.25"x .375wall (1.5"id)?
Man, Square stock is weak! But if you are going to sleeve it with a square tubing then that is strong! and heavy! We run stock on some plows out here at work and that crap is always bending until we started sleeving it. Now it never breaks.

Collier....I love the post! I like a guy who does his homework. After all I've been doing hw forever now. Now that I graduated, it becomes habit.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:32 AM   #17
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Some of the things I look at when building links is replacement,links get bent no matter what they are made of.It's a fact.So when I am picking a material I want something that is easy to find and cost effective. Thick wall DOM is not as common as square tubing is and round tubing of any type becomes worthless if it get a dent in the wall of the tubing.unlike square where it has 3 other sides left for some strength. now on that note...I have found the I like fabricated box links and to be the strongest over all. building these was not possible before I got my cnc plasma table though.

this is just my outlook,I'm not arguing which is better.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR Collier View Post
I agree completely Tclowrance(and very nice post), I did the math last night and I arrived at the same conclusion.

Here is some more information on Bending.
The max stress in a beam with a moment(bending force) applied is as follows

max stress=(M*c)/I
M=the moment
c=distance from centerline to outeredge
I=moment of inertia

if we call I/c the section modulus "S"
then stress=M/S

This means the smaller the S the higher the stress and the more susceptible to failure a beam is.(given the same material properties, which Tclowrance stated is true from earlier)

The Section Modulus for tubes is as follows
Square Tube:
S=((A^4)-(Ai^4))/(6*A)
A= width of and outer side
Ai= width of and Inner side

Round Tube
S=(pi)*((do^4)-(di^4))/(32*di)
Do= Outer Diameter
Di= Inner Diameter

So for 2" x 2" - .25"wall square
S=.9115
and for 2" - .25"wall Dom
S=.7159

Thus since the DOM has a smaller section modulus then the stress would be greater than that of the square tubing and therfore it is more likely to bend than the square.(given the same material properties)

This information came from the book "Mechanics of Materials" by R.C. Hibbler
So this is not my opinion. If you find something wrong I will gladly correct it.

Given the same outer dimensions then square tube will be generally more resilient to bending than DOM but obviously when comparing a large piece of DOM to a smaller square tube there is point at which DOM is definitely stronger.
Nice, but you didn't account for how the stress as it is spread out along the beam.

Try a Static Engineer book and see what you find out. You talked about bending from the outer edge to the center of the shaft, but not from mounting point to mounting point.

There is a reason why everything that is engineered is not being made out of square tubing and is made out of DOM tubing. You just need to dig further along. Check out Static Engineer and you might find your answers.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:45 AM   #19
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Here is a bending stress calculator, it calculate how much stress a beam can take before bending,

http://www.onlinefeasolver.com/softw...am_bending.php

Using your number and we will keep Moment the same at 5 you can see it takes more stress to bend the circle tube then the square tube.

I'll stop by the trailer house and grab a couple of my books from college and I'll see if I can give you the correct formulas, but this calculator is a good example of how important structural design is compare to material mechanic.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:51 AM   #20
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Also re-look at your formulas, you say Max Stress = M/S

If M is the moment, and it's the same, then the tubing with the smaller S is going to be stronger as it can handle more stress then the one with the bigger S.

So with your post Dom tubing is S=.7159 and Suare Tubing is S= .9115

Moment is at 5 let say for argument sank, Max Stress= 5/.7159 and that comes out for Dom Tubing 6.984 max stress.

Max Stress = 5/.9115 and that comes out for Square Tubing 5.485 Max Stress.

So obviously Dom Tubing is Stronger then Square Tubing.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:56 AM   #21
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really all i was wondering is IF you could use the formulas to figure out what size square would actually take the load comparable to the DOM im using. just for fun is all i mean. 4x4?
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:02 AM   #22
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really all i was wondering is IF you could use the formulas to figure out what size square would actually take the load comparable to the DOM im using. just for fun is all i mean. 4x4?
You could play with the calculator and get an idea, but a lot plays in what you are asking for, such as how long is the tubing going to be, what material you want, what kind of load are you going to be subjecting it to?

But for the best bet, I would stick with DOM if you can afford it. less material and weighs less and I'm sure you don't want to add more weight then needed since heavy axles are going under this buggy.

I wouldn't think it would be really big, but when you run square tubing, you have different points that can take more stress then other points. If you happen to hit a rock with a square tubing just right at the weak point then you are screwed, while tubing will have the same max stress through out the whole tubing and no worry about hitting a weak point in the tubing. If you bend the DOM tubing then you put too much stress on it and even a Square tubing wouldn't hold up in the same situation unless it was bigger and thicker then the DOM tubing.
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:17 AM   #23
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After read your post one more, I don't think you know what your formula are for.

Max Stress is the Maximum Stress that the beam can handle before bending.
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:18 AM   #24
Gonzo Wheeler
 
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Cody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud ofCody has much to be proud of
Also I played with the numbers and I can't find a Square Tubing that will match the same strength as a tubing of that size without getting crazy.
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1979 camaro
2003 ranger
1979 F-100


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Old 12-04-2009, 09:43 AM   #25
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I think you guys are arguing over formula's in which is
compression,tensile,torsional....etc.
I want to see a test on damaged materials,like if you slammed your link down on a rock and it gets dented and bent how well would it hold up after that....your changing the shape of the material when that happens so those formula's don't apply after that.
same goes for rod ends...math wise you would not need a 1 1/4" heim joint to hold but that does not take in account for damages done on side impacts that damage the body of the heim and make it fail.

all of these formula's are done in a lab under ideal conditions,real world wheeling there are no ideal conditions...engineers design things all the time and sometimes it fail's and they go back and redesign. thats why many things are designed with what the call a "safety factor" which is 3 to 5 times what the formula calls for. for instance a 1/4" grade 8 bolt has a shear strength of 8000 pounds so by that I would assume that it could pick up a car that weights 3500 pounds...right? so if I drilled a hole in my car's roof and used one 1/4" bolt in the center it would be safe to lift it and walk under it....well the formula said it would work...to many variables to be safe. I would feel safer with 5 bolts a good backing plate.

So what have we all learned from each other? simple build the **** out of it...try what you feel you are comfortable with. you can always upgrade when needed.
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